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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri one
of the greatest practitioners of what
should be the noble art of Journalism
Claude Coburn once said that when it
comes to government information nothing
is true until it's officially been
denied the proper relationship he said
between a journalist and the state
should be the relationship of the dog to
the lampost his dispatches from the
Spanish Civil War were legendary he
founded the week in 1933 studying
standards in British journalism which is
still running today though the standards
are less heathered a family of great
journalists one of whom Patrick curn of
The Independent Newspaper in London is
this year's foreign correspondent of the
year though frankly in my opinion he is
that every year this week he wrote about
our friends the Saudis and how they
paying for murder and Mayhem in many
parts of the world I'm pleased to say
he'll be joining us on board the Sputnik
to discuss it but first the Sea of
hypocrisy which has engulfed the world
following the demise of the freedom
fighter armed struggler and my friend
Nelson Mandela countries and even
individuals who collaborated with the
crime of aparte to the eth degree have
literally elbowed each other out of the
way to get their selfies in at his
funeral events none more so than our own
Prime Minister David Cameron who in his
not so distant youth campaigned with the
Federation of conservative students to
hang Nelson Mandela his leader Margaret
Thatcher said that Mandela was a
terrorist and that anyone who thought
thec would ever rule South Africa was
living in Cloud cucko land I was there I
heard her I saw her lips move we'll be
joined shortly by the pan africanist
campaigner Esther Stanford Kai who
fights for reparations from the
colonialist pow for the people of Africa
but first gri if hypocrisy was the order
of the day inside the parliament you
were outside what was it like there
outside there were real people with real
feelings let's see find it very
hypocritical of the neocons who are now
glorifying thater and claiming unath
shamed thatcherism when until Mandela's
death it was forgotten that she
occasionally took the wrong side of the
fence position calling now Mandela a
terrorist she was with pinish
have we forgotten these things the ncu's
peaceful means up until the shield
Massacre and when 69 people get
innocently murdered you've got to change
your approach and Mandela was a
wholeheartedly good person but at the
end of the day people don't realize what
a brutal regime the aparted regime was
we continue his duty as he did to his
country we would like a good uh
reconciliation after the Libyan Civil
War so we would like all of Libyan
parties take the bath of the nson
Mandela to bring everybody in Libya
together to build our country great
stuff did I spot Mr Blair's Middle East
Minister Peter Hayne in the crowd there
well spotted and I managed to interview
him as well really I did let's have a
look at that then Mr you know you've
done a lot against apide regime at the
time what are your memories of Mr Nelsa
Mandela nson Mandela for me is somebody
who went back to my childhood because my
parents were active in in the anti-
apartate struggle in Petoria and South
Africa in the dark Grim days of apartate
the most evil system in the world at the
time and they were supporting him and I
remember him as a teenager as a little
boy I remember his speech in his trial
when he faced the death penalty when he
said that he would be prepared to die
for his freedom and the freedom of his
people so for me he's inspired my entire
political life as such a fantastic
person because of his commitment to
social justice democracy and freedom so
do you believe he realized his
dreams Nelson Mandela was an idealist as
well as a leader he was somebody who
showed fantastic courage and he's
probably the most admired political
figure across the world universally
admired universally liked and that is
not just because of his courage and his
leadership and the way he sacrificed the
best days of of his life in prison for
the freedom of his people it's because
he's also a people's person he cares
about people and I can remember
countless times when he just was very
very nice to everybody he met however
important or unimportant they
were how did you feel when you heard
prime minister C Cameron speaking uh
giving his condolences and speaking
about Mandela knowing his
past campaigning against him well there
was some people who said they were
against apartate and there were others
who did something about it the people
who did something about it in the anti-
apartate movement they have caused to be
proud and Nelson Mandela never failed to
thank them people in the anti apartate
movement struggling for his freedom he
always used to say to us without what
you did I would not be a free man today
and my people would not be free those
who did not support the anti- aparted
struggle those who either opposed it as
many did including members of parliament
here in Westminster or or those who did
nothing I don't think they can have any
cause for Pride at
all well Peter Hayne didn't answer the
question of whether he thought Mandela's
dreams had been realized I think it's a
fair bet that my next guest and myself
don't consider that the mass of the
South African people have had their
dreams realized yet Esther Stanford
kosai am I right about that you're
absolutely correct the majority of
Africans in South Africa have still been
waiting for the promises of so-called
democracy and freedom and in fact the
freedom that they have enjoyed and the
Democracy that they have enjoyed post
1994 has really been a choiceless
democracy the land has still not been
returned to the people we're seeing
increasing impoverishment we're seeing
many of the promises that thec made
still not being delivered on it's good
to have a vote but you can't eat it it's
good to have freedom of speech and
assembly and so on but you can't live
under it it's not a roof the discontent
amongst the masses about thec government
was evident wasn't it when the president
of the Republic was roundly booed in the
football stadium uh by the public who
gathered for the Mandela Memorial that's
correct and that's just giving an
indication of the feelings of the people
which are often suppressed in the mass
media because we are led to believe that
we have this one happy family in South
Africa this rainbow nation and it is
really it pays the powers that be who
still maintain the wealth and the
political power the economic power to
create this mythology to suppress the
population in to not resisting and not
revolting but that's no longer working
the the the propaganda machine has
airbrushed mandella's Life as a freedom
fighter as a political prisoner as an
ally of Cuba and the former Soviet Union
for example all that's forgotten and
they are airbrushing the Contemporary
reality of South Africa in which the
mass of the population uh whilst it's no
longer subject to the crude uh
vulgarities of a parte you don't get an
official coming to measure the curls on
your head to see which racial
stratification you should be in or
telling you you can live in District 4
but not in district 6 and so on uh but
of course money is now causing the
separate development if AP parite means
uh two different uh peoples uh living in
the same country under entirely
different conditions well apart it
hasn't ended no it it never ended in
fact economic apart
always remained and so it was well known
when thec came to power in 1994 they did
say they might be in government but
they're not in power and that is exactly
true and we are saying the fact that I
mean the the whole economic situation is
linked to the land crisis there was a
promise that the uh there would be 30%
redistribution of land by
2014 that Target has now been pushed
back to 2025 and it's well known that
the commonest characteristic between
those that have wealth and those that
don't have it is the question of land an
access to land land use land ownership
and also the ability to benefit from the
institutions and everything that comes
out of the land when you were Vox
popping uh the public there do you find
any trace of the kind of disappointment
that Esther and to some extent myself
are expressing here apart from the the
lady who was very pronounced about
teters um T teters line not really cuz
everybody there young old black why they
were just in a spirit of the good
memories of Mandela it's a good thing
that people love Mandela uh and most
people love him for the best of reasons
but it can also be a big big coat of
lipstick uh on the face of something
that isn't quite so pretty yes I mean I
question what it is that people love
about Mandela because the imagery and
the image making that we are seeing
across the corporate mass media is of
this saintly figure this pacifist this
person who had this superhuman capacity
for forgiveness and that's actually
quite interesting and it reminds me of a
comment that was made by a lord in the
British House of Lords in 1996 in a
debate on slavery and the question of
reparations and he actually said well
bring bring up this issue of reparations
goes counter to the African Humanity
because African people are actually
quite forgiving and so I don't see why
we should be expected to be so forgiving
there's a question of Justice and
Justice still has not been realized it
was quite interesting that uh President
Obama got the best reception uh from the
crowd at Mandela's Memorial he doesn't
deserve it in my view but what was your
take on that oh mix mixed views about
Obama because Obama again represents
this symbolism a kind of symbolism
that's akin to a Mandela in terms of
people feel enamored of the fact that
this is supposedly the first black
president of America but what people are
not seeing is the role that he is
playing as the head of us Empire and
Military commanderin-chief and so what
it's also demonstrating is how while
people are not able to be Discerning as
to really what people's role is and we
get very much caught up in symbolism
rather than the substance Esther
Stanford kosai thanks for joining us on
Sputnik we'll be back after the break
talking about the tyranny in Saudi
Arabia and Britain's peculiar love
affair with it we'll be right
back welcome back to Sputnik now The
Independent Newspaper is one of
Britain's better newspapers and its
foreign correspondents usually take
first prize and the very best of them is
with me now here on the Sputnik Patrick
curn thanks for joining us you wrote uh
wonderful piece this week about the
somewhat peculiar relationship between
Britain and Saudi Arabia indeed Western
countries and Saudi Arabia who as you
demonstrate in the piece are responsible
for and paying for extremism uh
sometimes of a very virulent kind uh
throughout the world throughout the
Muslim world uh what's your conclusion
as to why we should be in this peculiar
relationship with
them well it is very strange as you say
since it's in plain view that the way
that uh militant
fundamentalist Sunni
fanaticism has grown up
really over the last 30 years has been
through the support of Saudi Arabia and
the gulf
monarchies um yet the US and Britain
have gone out of their way to pretend
that somehow Iran is behind it or Iraq
is behind it um well their own reports
as revealed in the 9/11 commission and
by Wikileaks say private donors in Saudi
Arabia and the Gulf are the people who
support
Al-Qaeda and uh extreme Sunni
organizations well the world was fixated
this week when President Obama just
shook the hand of the Cuban leader rul
Castro which is a country 90 Mi away
from his Coast but Western leaders are
forever kissing the nose of the Saudi
ruling Elite and selling them guns you
know you look at Syria
today um you know who fund
the uh insurgents they were supported by
Gat until Midsummer now Saudi Arabia has
taken over the file speaks of raising a
substantial Sunni Army uh that somehow
will be against uh uh Assad but will
also be against Al-Qaeda but yet
Al-Qaeda linked organization seem to be
part of it so there's no question about
their Central role in funding um
fundamentalists uh Jihadi
organizations from the 1980s from the
time of the Taliban in
Afghanistan uh the insurgents in
Syria uh the uh Iraq uh you know this
record is obvious and pretty well
undenied well as you put it in in plain
view and that was uh ever thus the
fathers of the Taliban the fathers of
al-Qaeda indeed some of the found
members of al-Qaeda were initially paid
for in Afghanistan by Saudi money rooted
through Sadat's Egypt on the orders of
the American Administration with the
British of Mrs thater uh close behind
but this seems to have survived the
al-Qaeda turn which slaughtered
thousands of Americans yes I mean it's
pretty extraordinary I mean there is
still part of the 911 Commission report
I think which is to deal with Saudi
Arabia which hasn't been published
but why has it happened I think one
reason is that all these Al-Qaeda linked
organizations are primarily killing
other Muslims they're killing Shia and
if they're not killing other Muslims
they're killing Christians Iraqi
Christians Syrian Christians suppose for
a moment that they were killing uh
people in Western Europe or in America I
don't think they'd be quite the same
tolerance
attitude towards these uh private donors
in Saudi Arabia and the gulf monarchies
who are allowed to operate so freely I I
can understand why cynical Western
politicians are prepared to avert their
gaze from 911 and uh 77 in England when
55 people were slaughtered on the London
transport uh system the Madrid bombings
were an even larger number were
slaughtered but the role of the media
you would have thought would be to point
out the inconsistency hypocrisy of being
in bed with Al-Qaeda the same Al-Qaeda
that sowed such Carnage in our own
countries I still find it amazing
because it's one of those stories which
is very dramatic but you don't have to
dig for you don't need need to you don't
have to know some highly informed
Diplomat or have some secret Source uh I
mean it's been more perhaps patent
through documents you know released by
Wikileaks there's a long uh memorandum
from Hillary Clinton at the end of
2009 say exactly the same thing as the
911 Commission had said seven or eight
years
earlier um that the people who support
Al-Qaeda and the Jihadi organizations
are primarily donors in Saudi Arabia and
the gulf and there's no change in this
and not much is done about so so it
seems to me one of the great stories of
the world but largely uncovered indeed
uh and I suppose the most obvious
explanation is that we do very good
business with Saudi Arabia there's the
endless recycling of Saudi petrol
dollars through London and New York and
uh and so on but it could it be that
there is more to it than just brass
could it be that uh that Al-Qaeda
somehow a useful weapon and reserve for
the big Powers I mean they have been
used in Syria in exactly that way it's
all a bit like Afghanistan I think in a
way that there's a time when it's
all okay to fund these very dangerous
people and then surprise surprise the
you find that they don't like you very
much and uh they turn into some new form
of al-Qaeda which is what Stein of
course thought he could build a monster
and keep uh control of it but the reason
it's called a monster is because you
can't uh keep control of it but what's
going to happen now I think we agree
that the uh the war though continuing to
rage in Syria and blood continuing to
flow has turned decisively against
Al-Qaeda and the Fanatics I think that
Geneva 2 or three or four will
ultimately bring about some kind of
negotiated end to this conflict but all
these jihadis are dressed up with
somewhere to go where might they go well
some of them will come back and
presumably won't have changed their
views very much uh they'll spread all
over the place like they did from
Afghanistan um I think very late in the
day this has begun to worry Washington
and London and Paris but you know to my
mind surely it's too late because you
have hundreds and thousands of these
people well that's a fact uh the uh
people in this country uh have been
transfixed by the horror of what
happened on a South London Street a year
or so ago where an attempt was made to
decapitate a young soldier in broad
daylight in front of women and and
children uh by the very people that the
British and other governments are
supporting in Syria if these fanatics
had gone to Aleppo to commit such an
atrocity uh the British would have paid
for the
knife well you know they just I'm not
you know I don't think that they they
somehow they don't associate supporting
in general Rebels with the guys who are
cutting throats in the streets of Aleppo
you know last week they they shot a guy
who was a um he was selling diesel in
Aleppo and he described himself self as
the god of fuel as an advertising slogen
they shot him for blasphemy immediately
you know this is one of many
stories um and so I think it's only now
that they quite be the the people are
beginning in government to realize what
a sort of Frankenstein as you say
they've been allowing to develop in
Syria and in Northern Iraq this is a
great sthe of territory that is now
under the control
of al-Qaeda despite everything all these
billions of dollars these enormous
security organizations established since
911 how come that Al-Qaeda which used to
be a very small organization is now a
very big organization and controls
everything or much of what happens
between mosul a city in Northern Iraq
and the Mediterranean you know this is
an extraordinary uh development
especially as we were led to believe
that upon the kill killing of Bin Laden
that was more or less the end yeah
that's this was but this is you know
there's a phoniness about all this of
we're combating Al-Qaeda where do we go
do we go to Northern Iraq with our very
strong Northern Syria no we go to the
hill Villages of Yemen you know bedwin
encampments there and have drone strikes
or you know in North weran this is not
where the action is I mean you can it's
kind of easy to do there and you can
publicize great victories but it's not
where the serious battles are being
fought and it's not where the serious
battles are being lost Patrick curn
thanks very much indeed for joining us
on the
Sputnik thank you so
much well this is the part of the show
where you have your say through our
internet portal rtor Sputnik where the
traffic is growing increasingly busier
what's new well this week on Twitter I
asked the people what they thought about
the hypocrisy around the Nelson Mandela
me Memorial and Ellen anworth said that
Mr Mandela must have been spinning in
its grave zash Anna replies bunch of
socks murderers and war criminals it is
sad South Africa allowed so many war
criminals to attend his funeral not up
to him of course crash the market says
seeing Cameron at Nelson Mandela's
funeral is on a par with Dennis Skinner
faking green at Tes funeral yeah of
course Dennis skner would never have
done that David Cameron however did
David Cameron was a Leading Light in the
Federation of conservative students as
was the speaker I may say of the House
of Commons though he has sincerely
repented these people wore t-shirts with
Mandela's face on them saying hang
Nelson Mandela I was there and saw them
doing it they campaigned actually
launched a paid for campaign in support
of a party against sanctions on South
Africa and for the hanging of Mandela
and yet there they are shedding their
crocodile tears over the great man's
coffin it's enough it's enough to turn
your stomach really what else have you
got I got a few replies on um the
question how uh people think about the
Saudi relation uh with Britain and Rose
replies to that well Queenie likees
Saudi royals as well doesn't she nice
cozy brutality abuse and armed sales
lovely I doubt that the queen likes the
Saudi royals to be honest but the it's
not properly appreciated overseas the
queen makes none of these decisions the
Prime Minister tells the queen who is
coming to stay with her uh On Any Given
Tuesday and who is to be whed and dined
and taken down the Streets of London in
an open top uh Carriage David Thomas
replies to the question why we have such
a amicable relation with the Saudis I
pass that to our friends in the UK arms
and trade to respond well undoubtedly
it's about arms sales in large part uh
Britain has sold tens of billions of
pounds worth of weapons to a Saudi
dictatorship that actually is incapable
even of using them they're probably
rusting in the desert right now it's a
kind of recycling of the petrol dollar
it's a kind of protection money the
Saudis get diplomatic and political
support from Western countries and in
return they spend all their money here
well those were the best we of this week
well that's all we've got time for
unfortunately but if you enjoyed the
Sputnik come back next week at the same
time do please keep the tweets coming at
rtor Sputnik that's it for me G and from
me George Galloway it's been
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marvelous